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Post by Stargate on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:18 pm

@Lenzabi wrote:Once the Corporations take a nation over as they have America, we have an Oligarchial Corporatocracy, no liberties, or rights except the CEO's and uber rich

That is somewhat the way I see it Len. I reread the history from the Greeks how democracy started and what I picked up in reality, its all about monopolizing minority rule. In the end it was the smaller minorities that joined together to make a majority but remained a minority because the majority were scattered over the Island of Greese. I maybe wrong in the way I understood it, but if you look at it from a worldview we do not have majority rule but !minority rule. Am I missing something?

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Post by Rockhopper on Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:29 pm

Well put Star. And correct.

There is no voting system that can stop certain people getting into power. All can be subverted in one way or another.

A Constitutional System has the problem with being locked in time (the time when the constitution was constructed) and doesn't adapt easily.

A Parliamentary System is adaptable but can be subverted too. It can be changed without the knowledge of the ordinary voters. The problem we have now is that the Rightwing parties have got almost full control and the Leftwing have been decimated to the point of being of no consequence.

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Post by Lenzabi on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:12 pm

Well, the Constitutuion was supposed to be a breathing, living adaptable document as the founders saw that times would change, and so too would the Constitution need to adapt and change with the times, however, as they also did not last long enough to make sure that proper education was guaranteed for all, the people slowly stopped voting issues, but voted personalities in, as well as the playing of fears to get elected.

Such has been worked on all forms of government. I do see parallels of late between tactics used by both the early Nazi party and the present day Tea Party. Fear, intimidation, belligerent loud mouths in both eras.

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Post by Rockhopper on Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:55 am

Can't find anything in what you say to argue about.

As John Giroux puts it: “Neoliberal authoritarianism has changed the language of politics and everyday life through a poisonous public pedagogy that turns reason on its head and normalizes a culture of fear, war and exploitation.”

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Post by Lenzabi on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:14 am

Aye Rock, and they did so much of it here.

America needs a brand new new deal that fits the times. We need another Roosevelt as it were, Teddy, FDR, Eleanor, any one would help things if they were today as firm in conviction. So much of their work dismantled by our neo-cons and punditry of the type that reminds me of the almost comical yet frightening in it's influence on folks which is equal to that spewed by Goebbels, of which they do actually repeat things until it sinks into people's heads and locks in. So hard to dislodged if the person it takes root in is uneducated or unobjective/uncritical in their thinking.

I did learn in my years that "Socialism" does not equate to "Boogyman" It is just a different yet also practiced system that works in certain areas, and also helps balance the heavy handed capitalism as practiced by the corporatists.

To stop this creeping destruction of our nation by the greedy and the overly money hoarding parasites, good and strong even education which helps people look and think for themselves is needed to cut through the BS but they don;t want that here because then not only would that destroy the severe right wingers here, but then things would get hot for the multi-nationals and others who are throttling our society, waging wars with our massive taxpayer fueled hemorrhage to the contractors (3+ trillion to military which equals 26 other top spending militarist nations on Earth) and their subsidized payouts to corporations who hold us back in pursuit of alternative energy so as to cut down our addiction to Oil and Coal. as well as the fracking which is the mishandled search for LNG causing issues with water tables and artificial earthquakes.

To think, way back, I was a spouting the rhetoric like "Kill a commie for mommy" and such drivel. Life teaches and changes us all.

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Post by Rockhopper on Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:56 am

Yep Len it's fast reaching the point where only a revolution will solve it. And that scares me because it can and will become very dirty and bloody when it happens.

It may not happen in our lifetimes but it will happen unless there is a paradigm shift in thinking.

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Post by Lenzabi on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:57 am

And there is apparently a shift, but it is also going to b slow process, and the rich are speeding up their own process so as to avoid that shift, or subvert it and allow the greed paradigm to last longer so they can loot more.

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Post by Mordae on Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:24 am

@Rockhopper wrote:Yep Len it's fast reaching the point where only a revolution will solve it. And that scares me because it can and will become very dirty and bloody when it happens.

It may not happen in our lifetimes but it will happen unless there is a paradigm shift in thinking.

Tim.

I agree Tim, except I think, to a degree, it has already begun.
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Post by Rockhopper on Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:41 am

Yep it has Mordie but it's not organised fully yet. When there are running gun battles in the streets, we'll know then.

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Post by Stargate on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:07 am

@Lenzabi wrote:Aye Rock, and they did so much of it here.

America needs a brand new new deal that fits the times. We need another Roosevelt as it were, Teddy, FDR, Eleanor, any one would help things if they were today as firm in conviction. So much of their work dismantled by our neo-cons and punditry of the type that reminds me of the almost comical yet frightening in it's influence on folks which is equal to that spewed by Goebbels, of which they do actually repeat things until it sinks into people's heads and locks in. So hard to dislodged if the person it takes root in is uneducated or unobjective/uncritical in their thinking.

I did learn in my years that "Socialism" does not equate to "Boogyman" It is just a different yet also practiced system that works in certain areas, and also helps balance the heavy handed capitalism as practiced by the corporatists.

To stop this creeping destruction of our nation by the greedy and the overly money hoarding parasites, good and strong even education which helps people look and think for themselves is needed to cut through the BS but they don;t want that here because then not only would that destroy the severe right wingers here, but then things would get hot for the multi-nationals and others who are throttling our society, waging wars with our massive taxpayer fueled hemorrhage to the contractors (3+ trillion to military which equals 26 other top spending militarist nations on Earth) and their subsidized payouts to corporations who hold us back in pursuit of alternative energy so as to cut down our addiction to Oil and Coal. as well as the fracking which is the mishandled search for LNG causing issues with water tables and artificial earthquakes.

To think, way back, I was a spouting the rhetoric like "Kill a commie for mommy" and such drivel. Life teaches and changes us all.

Len, I agree with you that America needs a new deal, however not a new Teddy, or Ellen its past that. I think Tim is right on that score, it needs a revolution.

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Post by Lenzabi on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:45 am

Sadly Star, as long as the majority have their access to their cable and internet, there is no button for "revolution" on the remote wand.


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Post by IceWendigo on Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:35 pm

I found this interesting economic interview




"What country do you think is a democracy?"
None compare to what existed in Athens afaik, but imo Switzerland is less anti-democratic than most countries.

"Revolution"
Imo, theres no point in having a revolution, lead by controlled opposition leaders who use the Elites pre-packaged plan B ideology (ex: Libertarian Fascists), or that end up in square one choosing "Professionals" to make the new constitution behind closed doors, a Constitution by lawyers, politicians, aristocrats and people that want power, is more often than not like a hen house rules made by foxes, its crap. You cant have a democracy made by politicians, thats like hoping or asking the Mafia to write an anti-corruption bill. A democracy is most likely to only see the light of day when people realize that elections are bought, that politicians will never fix the problem they are part of, and the people start organizing in parallel and making a citizens constitution.
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Post by Rockhopper on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:50 pm

Dribbled a bib full there again Ice. Like Communism, there has never been a true democracy anywhere in the world and probably never will be.

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Post by IceWendigo on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:39 pm

I disagree in this sense: If the people participate in decisions on issues, seeking consensus/coexisting-diversity as much as possible and the majority of people otherwise, while agreeing with the process, I call that democracy, and this has existed in various forms and may very well exist in the future. I dont call democracy "the party based election of rulers that decide without a mandate on issues about which they may have lied in a campaign bought by a few people while the majority of people concern have no say over", but dont agree a democracy cant exist, to me thats almost dropping the ball somewhat like saying theres no point in abolishing slavery because the slaves will always be slaves to breathing oxygen, so we might as well let slavery be since you cant have true liberty, thats why I cant say true democracy will never exist, a pragmatic and reasonable definition of democracy is quite possible to implement imo. Wink
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Post by Stargate on Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:04 pm

Ice, in response to what you said about revolution I agree to some extent, however the bottom line is the masses do not have another alternative but to rise up. I think the point you raise will only be possible after a revolution. Revolutions are not directly premeditated, they usually arise out of some sort of rejection. To reconstruct a country is one thing to reconstruct the world must start from a collective consciousness. Where can the masses start other than a revolution? Maybe I am not seeing it correctly but I would not know how to make your point valid other than through a revolution,peaceful, or otherwise.

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Post by IceWendigo on Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:53 am

It dates back but imo its worth seeing this interview:

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Post by Lenzabi on Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:04 pm

shame folks are not embracing what he says.

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