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Post by Agartha on Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:37 pm

@IceWendigo wrote:I think things can change and that there is a way to stop those in power in the medium term. We can analyse the power structure and mechanisms, spread understanding, and both undermine these power mechanisms and develop alternatives. I will get back about it.

^^ You are absolutely right, although it would be a slow process and we wouldn't see it succeed in our lifetime....... especially because most people are content by living the way they are, because they live unaffected by those wars.
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Post by IceWendigo on Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:10 pm

"although it would be a slow process and we wouldn't see it succeed in our lifetime....... especially because most people are content by living the way they are, because they live unaffected by those wars"
A slow process is quite possible, but if you want to dare indulge in optimism, I think there's a small chance that at some point in the future the right interaction configuration/participatory organisation and understanding occurs, and this could potentially spread very fast in parallel to the current system.

During the Great Depression the town of Worgl in Austria issued local interest free melting money and they became prosperous Very quickly, without inflation or unemployment, back then most people probably never heard about it and the Worgl initiative was shut down by the Austrian Central Bank, had the entire world been connected by the internet, many other towns in desperation could have done something similar, and in quick order there could be a chain reaction of similar experiments occurring (but without the internet it was possible to put the Jinny in the bottle before most people knew about it).
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Post by Monk (in hiding) on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:22 pm

Carlos Santana say's our existing system of MONEY is driven by FEAR...

There is plenty of resources for everyone on this planet.

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Post by Stargate on Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:59 pm

However, greed is fueled by fear. The question is all about power. The average man does not see his own power, therefore he struggles with himself to recognize who he is outside of his immediate needs. Majority rule has no longer a place value, democracy has different meanings, peoples perseptions have changed. We no longer live in one world we have many different worlds operating on different levels. If we are to change anything, we have to Change our way of how we see ourselves

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Post by Agartha on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:05 am

III wrote:
There is plenty of resources for everyone on this planet.

^^ Absolutely! We waste soooo much! Some households waste an incredible amount of food, but  also  hospitals and hotels do.

How the West Created the ISIL... - Page 2 Foodwaste_zpsa1e21c91

(Food waste infographic site)

How the West Created the ISIL... - Page 2 Foodwaste2_zps5e61c629

(Food fighters site)
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Post by Stirky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:40 am

Not just food too, we live in a throw away world!

I always try and recycle everything, in the sense that when I have a clear out (which I am doing at the mo, again) if there is something I don't want anymore but would be useful to somebody else then I will give it away. Either to people I know, on facebook or to the charity shop. Or if it's worth selling that's what I do.

Just fished a really old laptop out of the cupboard, my hubby found it in the skip at work in a big case with all the leads etc. It needed somebody to get the setup working on it, I am not that person and to be honest didn't really need it anyway, so just posted it on facebook for free and had lots of people wanting it. There is always somebody that will make use of something, I hate throwing stuff away!
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Post by Stirky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:41 am

Just realised how OT that post was lol!
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Post by Agartha on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:57 am

I agree with you, I am exactly the same.... we grew up buying and throwing, throwing and replacing and we have forgotten to value what we have.... some of us do now, but the big majority of people in the West don't.
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Post by Rogue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:04 am


I feel like most people here do a pretty good job of recycling and most councils have supported people with this. Charity shops are everywhere here now and its become very acceptable for anyone to shop there nowadays. Big turn around from 20 years ago.
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Post by Kaere on Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:15 am

Off topic indeed but sometimes that happens with us haha.

It's not just about the environment... I think it's important to keep in mind that our electronics, etc are often made with parts that are not so ethically supplied - child labour is quite prevalent, even adult workers being paid crap money and having to work ridiculous hours to earn it, components being created with metals, minerals, etc that are obtained from countries with poor reputations. If you've got Samsung anything, chances are a little kid helped bring it into being. Toys too, made by little kids who won't ever be able to afford to play with them. How many people have to die in a factory fire in India so I can have cheap clothing?

Sorry, ranting just a little bit...
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Post by Stirky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:37 pm

That's true Kaere, all those cheap places out there and people go there because they can't afford the things made in their own country that are a lot more expensive. These companies are supplying cheap goods for a high demand, so things won't change anytime soon. But it is sad. Although going for companies that supply fairtrade is better, plus it does give people jobs, when the companies are more ethical this is a good thing.

But we will never get away from the huge corporations getting their own way and making their fortunes.
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Post by IceWendigo on Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm

random thoughts

The production cost of a 900$ iphone is about 200$ and there's lets say 6$ (pulling this guestimate out of my hat) that goes to the exploited labour, I am guestimating that having better conditions would amount to something like 12-20$ more on a 900$ product. I think that some Google phone was estimated to cost 4$ more a unit because it was assembled in the USA instead of a developing country.
Im not sure all types of products are much cheaper when done by exploited people, they might be much cheaper to make, but not necessarily that much cheaper for the consumer. Some shoe companies in Canada closed shop and located in places where slave labour is used, but I can't say I noticed a time when shoe prices dropped like stones in water, I suspect it mostly benefited the share holders (maybe prices fell by a huge amount and I didnt notice).

I dont know about western Canada, but here when the Canadian $ greatly appreciated, the price of imported stuff did NOT significantly go down in retail stores, middle man retailers for the most part simply made more profits. When the Mad Cow disease was in the news, meat producers got virtually nothing for meat, while retail prices were *marginally* lower.

My memory is bad I dont master the details, but A few years ago there was a pseudo-artificial shortage of grain/rice, many people couldnt afford to eat and it created a famine but ADM and other Agro business middle men made *Billions* in profits.

On a different subject, when we will have 3D printers, we will be able to print a variety of products that will have a labour cost of 0$ and will not require human drudging time.

Ill go further away OT, very far, Mars colonies, if and when they are established,  will require very high recycling, and they will grow food in conditions worse than a desert or Antarctica or of a city. The research required to achieve this could be very beneficial for humans on Earth.
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Post by Lenzabi on Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Apple tried to bump that to 1400USD per unit if made here in America, Apple, is so pretentious and full of themsleves.

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Post by Rockhopper on Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:54 pm

Don't worry about this thread wandering off topic, that's how discussions go!

Capitalism requires low wages to maximise profits. Those profits are generated by the workers so in effect, the profits are being stolen from the workers! That means that corporations move to a country where labour is plentiful and cheap. Workers all around the world are being exploited this way. We hear the endless cry for "More Productivity" but when the workers increase productivity it never shows in wage increases.

Here, back in the early 90's, our Minister of Welfare Jenny Shipley, cut the Benefit payments by $20.00 weekly, she claimed that the country couldn't afford to payments (we could and she was lying). The reason was the make the gap between the benefit and the lowest paid work wider and encourage people to go for the jobs that didn't exist. All that she achieved was to drive down the wages of the lowest paid and in desperation the Govt. at the time had to bring in a minimum wage to stop it going lower! It was a fiasco! That was idealogy not economics.

Occupy didn't have a clear leadership (a many headed organism) consequently it imploded on itself. The old story of divide and conquer was used against it very effectively.

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Post by Kaere on Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:26 pm

@IceWendigo wrote:random thoughts

The production cost of a 900$ iphone is about 200$ and there's lets say 6$ (pulling this guestimate out of my hat) that goes to the exploited labour, I am guestimating that having better conditions would amount to something like 12-20$ more on a 900$ product. I think that some Google phone was estimated to cost 4$ more a unit because it was assembled in the USA instead of a developing country.
Im not sure all types of products are much cheaper when done by exploited people, they might be much cheaper to make, but not necessarily that much cheaper for the consumer. Some shoe companies in Canada closed shop and located in places where slave labour is used, but I can't say I noticed a time when shoe prices dropped like stones in water, I suspect it mostly benefited the share holders (maybe prices fell by a huge amount and I didnt notice).

I dont know about western Canada, but here when the Canadian $ greatly appreciated, the price of imported stuff did NOT significantly go down in retail stores, middle man retailers for the most part simply made more profits. When the Mad Cow disease was in the news, meat producers got virtually nothing for meat, while retail prices were *marginally* lower.

My memory is bad I dont master the details, but A few years ago there was a pseudo-artificial shortage of grain/rice, many people couldnt afford to eat and it created a famine but ADM and other Agro business middle men made *Billions* in profits.

On a different subject, when we will have 3D printers, we will be able to print a variety of products that will have a labour cost of 0$ and will not require human drudging time.

Ill go further away OT, very far, Mars colonies, if and when they are established,  will require very high recycling, and they will grow food in conditions worse than a desert or Antarctica or of a city. The research required to achieve this could be very beneficial for humans on Earth.

I've noticed that as well... prices never, ever come down, they only go up up up or stay steady. It's the sneaky repackaging that gets to me too, like a certain SunRype now puts their juices into 900ml packages instead of 1L, hoping we won't notice that number change but will instead focus on the "shiny new look". Pah!!

Don't even get me started on the price difference between Canada and the US... "oooh but you have a smaller market blah blah effing blah" or they want to say it's the exchange rate. NO! You just want to charge 35% more.

It boils my water, I tell ya.

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Post by Rockhopper on Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:47 pm

@Kaere wrote:I've noticed that as well... prices never, ever come down, they only go up up up or stay steady. It's the sneaky repackaging that gets to me too, like a certain SunRype now puts their juices into 900ml packages instead of 1L, hoping we won't notice that number change but will instead focus on the "shiny new look". Pah!!

Don't even get me started on the price difference between Canada and the US... "oooh but you have a smaller market blah blah effing blah" or they want to say it's the exchange rate. NO! You just want to charge 35% more.

It boils my water, I tell ya.


That's called "Downsizing" Ka. It's a sneaky trick to bluff customers. It rattles my cage too!

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Post by Lenzabi on Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:11 pm

Well, Ice, if we do get to Mars, if they have to make air to breathe and not terraform Mars' atmosphere, the corporates will charge for every breath you take. Air scrubber fees, etc. Water may be cheaper to make from the ice on mars, Early space colonies will not be so cushy.

Ah yes, "downsizing" which applies to jobs and products, and it is all crap. I also call it price gouging, charging more for less, also, "minimal market" means they don;t want to risk creating a demand for products, worrying they will lose their shirts in such a small market, the crap is not made up, just have to look at corporate documents discussing all of these things.

This in turn can make folks and whole nations crazy.Meanwhile, Powerful nations desire raw materials,,,,,bomb so-and-so and take theirs.

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Post by Kaere on Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:56 pm

Hmm, well I don't know much about economics or the technical terms used. I did take economics at Uni but I'm afraid it's just one of those things I was never able to really wrap my head around. Kinda like written music. But anyway, Len, I'm not sure it's about not wanting to risk creating a demand as the demand is already there and the products are quite readily available. It's about charging CDN$30 for a book that costs US$20 down south. Same book, dollar's at par, printed and shipped inside Canada, what's the deal?! They say "you have a smaller market so things cost more cause there's fewer people to give us a profit" and expect us to say "duhhh okay". Unless you've said something completely different and I've misunderstood you... in which case I'll feel a bit stupid but it'll pass lol.
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