Re: Presidential Elections (France)

[Agartha]

I do oppose the European Union (Switzerland is not part of the EU, it doesnt prevent the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne from having tons of foreign students and doesnt prevent Switzerland from having internation cooperstion,  you dont have to be in the EU to have international cooperation

Ah but Switzerland agreed in 1999 to have free movement of people too, just like every other european country. I could move to Switzerland any time I want without any restrictions. Hence students go to Switzerland.

In the UK we are now seeing the opposite, many European students are ditching the UK due to Brexit, for example Cambridge University had a drop of 14% so far, and Brexit has not even happened.

saying you are isolated from the world if not part of the EU is a non sequitur scare tactic imo, thats like saying theres no moon orbiting the earth for any country thats not part of the EU  btw academics can be fantastically naive unfortunately even if they know a lot about a given subject they can be blindsided about aspects  such as organized crime, corruption etc )

Did you know that the science programmes of the EU (a collaboration of its countries) has produced more science output than the US and China combined?

We live in an internationally networked world, and the EU has helped the UK to be one of the most productive in the world. Now that's changing already.

We need more co-operation in the world, not isolation.

[Stargate]

I think I agree somewhat with both, although I want to lean a little on what IWen, said, to be honest.

Aggy I think you are expecting a little too much in light of what is happening in the world. I do not think Le Pen is really seeing the whole picture, and can solve the problem. On the other hand I can't see anyone solving the problem at the moment. i don't think they have what it takes, to make it worse the people do not know what to do. They are tugged between the two negatives. I don't think any of us can rely on the information we get these days no matter where it comes from.

The right is not much different from the left these days which makes it harder to find something with substance emerging. There are some truths to what the leftist voters are complaining about, however there are legitimate complains coming also from the right that is not going to be pleasant in the eyes of the left, or the immigrant.

I believe either way the future will look different not only for France, but the entire EU.

[Stargate]

I may or may not disagree in your statements, what makes me want to reject both sides is because I do not see the social order. There has to be some basis for everything because I need some order and guidelines to even begin to accept anything.

There are some things written on my heart, and some from the understanding of man and myself.

[IceWendigo]

Imo a book that is important to read is "War is a Racket", not because it opposes war, an opposition which is a good thing, but because it offers food for thought about the world before the 1930s, before the formation of the CIA, before the cold war, before JFK's assassination, before the attack on the USS Liberty and before 911. For anyone who researched the JFK assassination, the implications about how society is
misunderstood are greater than the event since
the actors thought they could get away with it and they did, and seeing building 7 of the WTC is equally pivotal, people that have concluded its an inside job must think hard about the implications. Major General Smedley Butler offers a perspective that preceeds all that. And if you know about the attempted coup d'etat in the 30s, that this is both unknown by most people and that the feud was settled behind closed doors should also be worth consideration.

[IceWendigo]

"Did you know that the science programmes of the EU (a collaboration of its countries) has produced more science output"
thats neat, but my point was that you dont need the EU for that, you can just collaborate. And the 3rd Reich did great scientific work with jet airplanes too, but it just means they did research, it does not mean the 3rd Reich is a good political framework

[Stargate]

If I understood you correctly people do not most times think of the implications, nor do they think from their own understanding of what they perceive to be real for them.
Pre Kennedy for example is not so much my own thinking but a product of what has been indoctrinated in me.

The way I see it is, we lack critical Whole-istic (new word Lol.) thinking.
If you ask people do they want to get rid of Trump, some will tell you yes, get rid of him, if you ask them, what are you going to replace him with, they stumble.

[Stargate]

"Did you know that the science programmes of the EU (a collaboration of its countries) has produced more science output"
thats neat, but my point was that you dont need the EU for that, you can just collaborate. And the 3rd Reich did great scientific work with jet airplanes too, but it just means they did research, it does not mean the 3rd Reich is a good political framework

I agree.

[Agartha]

I believe either way the future will look different not only for France, but the entire EU.

Six decades of peace in Europe is one of the things the EU has achieved. I am pro-EU because for once all countries in Europe are working as equal partners, instead of bombing each other (and for many other reasons, like the freedom to live and work wherever I want).

And the left has done soooo much more for the working class than the right, at least in Europe.

thats neat, but my point was that you dont need the EU for that, you can just collaborate. And the 3rd Reich did great scientific work with jet airplanes too, but it just means they did research, it does not mean the 3rd Reich is a good political framework

That's a silly example.

Collaboration within Europe is a lot easier than collaboration with other countries, because it is immediate and no red tape involved. The EU is very much pro-science and gives lots of funding for research. I don't need to stress how difficult it is to get funding for scientific studies.

[IceWendigo]

You could argue there has not been war in western Europe since;

A) the european union
B)  the introduction of Disco music
C) the european agreement on dairy products
D) mutually assured nuclear destruction of NATO and the Warsaw Pact


ill have to think about it


"The EU is very much pro-science"
Nothing prevents member states from being proscience. The european space agency doent need the EU, Canada can contribute a robotic arm for the ISS without being part of a union or world government or the european union. The Roman Empire had many achevements, none of which justify the empire, the USSR was the first to send a man in space, i love science but i am against the EU against agregated consolidation of power and against supranational power transfer, it is even more remote from the people and even more anti-democratic than the anti-democratic system we now have.

[Agartha]

You could argue there has not been war in western Europe since;

A) the european union
B)  the introduction of Disco music
C) the european agreement on dairy products
D) mutually assured nuclear destruction of NATO and the Warsaw Pact


ill have to think about it

It was the introduction of the first credit card. LOL

Seriously, the EU, not NATO, has prevented conflict in Western Europe since WWII. It was the Schuman declaration that did it (May 1950) which was the founding text for european integration.

[Rockhopper]

Interesting conversation! The EU was created as a format to avoid further wars on that continent. NATO was a USA construct and still is an extension of US military power.

Over the last few hundred years the UK became powerful because it was isolated from Europe and was not directly involved with the squabbles going on there. WW II finished that splendid isolation with the advent of longer range planes and bombs.

Every empire is based on seizing the resources of another country, never to bring civilization (UK) or democracy (USA). It's all about resources. Iraq was about controlling the oil fields there, as was Libya. (The fact that both countries had stopped trading in US$ had some bearing too). Syria is about oil pipelines to Europe. Vietnam was about "stopping the spread of Communism" [sic]).

When we have a two party political system the two parties mover closer and closer together until what we get is one party with two branches. Tories and Blairites (UK), Democan and Republicrats (US) and so on.

Smedley Butler's books are a good read too.

Ike Eisenhower (Blacksmith in English) warned us about the Military/Industrial Complex and the power that they have garnered. When you are in the business of making bombs and bullets, the last thing one needs is world peace. No demand for those products! Secondly, when one is making shiny new techno-weapons one cannot outsource them to China although China would love that to happen! So the country must have a permanent enemy (Russia).

Tim.

[Stargate]

Yea Tim, I whole heatedly agree.

[Lenzabi]

It could be worse, you all could get a Trumpy to run things

[Agartha]

I think Brexit and Trump have warned French people of the disaster of following the right wing.

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