Re: Scotland, the Brave

by Stirky Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:47 am

We will find out in the morning

by Rogue Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:50 am

Depends how close it is I spose Smile

by Monk (in hiding) Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:51 am

Change is always met with challenges...

by IceWendigo Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:25 am

"That does lead to the "insular" thing that I spoke about a few days ago... in keeping others out (no immigration), you also keep yourself in. Do you not feel that could lead to stagnation?"

I disagree (as for all the points I make which are based on my interpretation of what Im reading). I must first clarify that I never said "No" immigration. Some immigration that can easily be integrated, which depends not only on the 1-"number" of immigrants, but also on the characteristics of the immigrants and on the current situation in the host country which could fluctuate. A human cell does allow molecules through its membrane, its not the case that nothing goes trough, it is beneficial to have exchanges, but if the cell is exposed to water saturated with salt or the opposite water without other types of molecules in the solution, the cell will be damaged or destroyed because the resulting exchange will exceed its needs and disrupts its ability to operate or sustain its structure and it will be destroyed.

Second, limits on immigration does not lead to Insular result, you can have other forms of interaction, tourists, you can travel out of your country, you can host international meetings and even cooperation activities, you can be curious about other cultures or not, have student exchanges or not, It is unrelated, its dependant on culture and policies, not on the level of immigration.

"In some forms of philosophy, it is seen that any act of separation against another is considered an act of aggression (Krishnamurti in particular speaks this as a truth). Can we accept and be at peace with our own selves if at the same time we are unable to accept and be at peace with others?"

I disgree to the highest degree. Should India have remained a part of the British Empire? Should France not resist against the Nazi and be part of the 3rd Reich as if it were bad not to be united with it? Should Austria not be allowed to make its own decisions instead of being annexed to present day Germany? Should Poland part of the Russian Empire? Should Canada be a 52nd state in the US, and have Universal Health Care abolished because people on the other end of a continent in the US dont want it, or be forced to partake in the bombing and murder of men, women and children in Iraq? Being separate an act of aggression? I dont think so. You can be separate and still have empathy and interact, and cooperate. Separation is not an aggression but about deciding for yourself, its about freedom.

"unable to accept and be at peace with others?"

This is a false dichotomy imo, it implies that you are not at peace if you are separate which is false, Finland and Sweden are separate and are not at war but at peace, not only can you be at peace with a separate entity but you can even cooperate with others when you are separate from them without being annexed. The international space station is a collaboration between different countries, they do not need to be fused under an imperial regime or a union to work together, they can be separate and cooperate.

"so what's really fuelling it? What do they want that they are not getting and is it really worth all the potential upheaval?"

We would have to ask a number of Scottish people that support Independence to know, but I can very easily see they would want to decide policies for themselves. They are in an anti-democratic system, they do not vote on policies, and to make it worse they are in an aggregated system that's even more remote from the people's will. The larger the aggregate the less democratic it is imo. That means, if your community is opposed to nuclear missiles, in a larger aggregate you could have strictly no say and not only be forced to host devices designed to kill thousands upon thousands of people, but on top of that be forced to pay exorbitant amounts for it, fortunes you could either spend on schools, hospitals, etc or leave in peoples pockets to spend in the economy, what ever.

by Monk (in hiding) Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:43 am

so aggie and stirk, if scotland goes independent, how will this effect your life?

by Agartha Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:27 am

III wrote:so aggie and stirk, if scotland goes independent, how will this effect your life?

It just means that we'll have border checks when we go visit Scotland...... I love Scotland and it's one of the few countries in the world where I keep on going again and again.

by Kaere Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:35 am

Aggie, I would think it would also mean changes to the NHS... perhaps more resources coming your way?

Ice, I'll respond to yours later on tonight Smile

by Agartha Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:37 am

Maybe, K, but we'll only be able to know correctly if they become independent.... tomorrow morning I'll switch on the news first thing in the morning.

by IceWendigo Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:37 am

I see a border check as an option, but not an absolute requirement. I can easily imagine no border checkpoints and just a sign that says 'Welcome to Scotland'.

by Kaere Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:47 am

So... no change then? Smile

by Monk (in hiding) Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:59 am

Lot's of Brits are upset, I'm sure it will have a impact with the banking industry?

by Agartha Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Of course there will be changes..... we just don't know what they are as yet.....if the independence happens...

by Kaere Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:19 pm

Some of them are spoken about here Smile

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/scotland-independence-referendum-if-yes-side-wins-what-happens-next-1.2769133

by Stirky Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:20 pm

Agartha wrote:
III wrote:so aggie and stirk, if scotland goes independent, how will this effect your life?

It just means that we'll have border checks when we go visit Scotland...... I love Scotland and it's one of the few countries in the world where I keep on going again and again.

Apparently not, it'll cost to much to introduce so there will be no boarder checks, no need to have a passport to go to Scotland.

Basically VM not a lot will change in England, it's Scotland that will see the changes. Apart from the Union Jack, that will change. Oh and it looks like my city will get all the nuclear subs, which isn't so good!

by Stirky Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:21 pm

They'll have 18 months to decide on the changes

by Stirky Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:01 pm

Well polling is now closed, just the count and then we will all know the outcome

by Monk (in hiding) Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Kaere wrote:Some of them are spoken about here

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/scotland-independence-referendum-if-yes-side-wins-what-happens-next-1.2769133

thanks.

by Monk (in hiding) Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:19 pm

Stirky wrote:
Agartha wrote:
III wrote:so aggie and stirk, if scotland goes independent, how will this effect your life?

It just means that we'll have border checks when we go visit Scotland...... I love Scotland and it's one of the few countries in the world where I keep on going again and again.

Apparently not, it'll cost to much to introduce so there will be no boarder checks, no need to have a passport to go to Scotland.

Basically VM not a lot will change in England, it's Scotland that will see the changes. Apart from the Union Jack, that will change. Oh and it looks like my city will get all the nuclear subs, which isn't so good!

More Jobs?

by Stirky Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:22 pm

Yes will be, but problems with extending the dockyard, which currently houses military but also a lot of it is used for a boat building company that builds super yachts. So yes more jobs are good, but there are also negatives.

A lot of businesses have already said they will pull out of Scotland if they vote yes, mainly due to uncertainty. So voting yes will cause Scotland to lose a lot of jobs.

by Lenzabi Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:33 am

Scotland voted to stay in, close vote though.

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