EU: Uncharted Territory

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Post by Rockhopper on Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:24 pm

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. But so far Europe has done next to nothing for Greece. They've made lots of loans, but mainly so that Greece could pay back its debt to shaky European banks. It's been every bit as disingenuous and self-interested as all the cheap loans those banks made to Greece in the first place so that Germans and others could enjoy access to cheap Greek products during the 2000's. They enjoyed the boom from those loans and supported it with monetary policy that favored Germany but overheated Greece, and then when the economy went sour they set monetary policy continent-wide to favor Germany yet again, not the folks they'd been shoveling money to all those years. And when Greece's economy collapsed, they just sat back, talked about following the rules, and demanded that Greece let their economy collapse even further.

It's not as if Greece bears no blame for what happened. A lot of people share in that. But Germany has been the cynical manipulator of events all the way back to 2000, tacitly approving capital flows to Greece when it helped the German economy and then orchestrating billions in loans when German banks ended up in trouble. And now that German banks aren't in trouble anymore, bye bye loans. Time to pull up the ladder.

Whatever else happens, it's a good time to be German and it's a crappy time to be Greek. Welcome to the European "union."

Tim.
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Post by Stargate on Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:49 pm

Well Tim, the fat lady is still singing, Germany is not off the hook. I lived in Germany for many years and I know how they see things. They do not look at the Greeks as equal beings, or the Turks, or the North Africans, as a matter of fact Germany has not really changed in terms of the Third Reich. They will stop at nothing to make other nations believe they are the cream of humanity. The Martial Plan that Germany was granted was not really a grant as many believe, most of it was a pay back for loosing the war. I know that's another story.
At the moment Germany has a lot to loose if the EU break up. Briton has not been subscribing to the Union because of the monetary arrangements, it did not suit them. They did not see a large enough benefit to change currency, plus they are a very conservative group of people.
My take on it is Greece is looking for a way out, and they will turn north to Russia, if the referendum says no to the EU.

On the other side of the equation the US and the rest of the world is behaving as if all is well at home, but you and I know it is far from OK.

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Post by Stargate on Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:03 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention. Do you know the wealthy Greeks are showing up in Australia, and the Government is welcoming them? Most normal citizen in Greece has lost about 80 to 90% of their house monetary value, where the rich only about 30%?

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Post by Lenzabi on Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:33 pm

Yeah, figures that the wealthy Greeks who let the EU go Loans wise and such, those who looted and profited from the trades are out of Greece, abandoning their own  country and population to live like exiled Kings elsewhere, and That is likely to happen here in the US if we crumble.

I have seen the wisconsin video of Bernie though, so I think America is also waking to the stink of the last 40yrs of trickle down, we with him at the helm may avoid the Grecian dilemma

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Post by Rockhopper on Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:43 pm

Yeah Star, I too spent some time in Germany (worked there for a bit) and I know how they think. You're right about that!

This whole issue with Greece and debt is not about money, it's about "Regime Change". The Central Govt. of the EU (dominated by Germany) wants pliant Govts. on the periphery not Govts. that stand up to them. They (the EU) want to crush Syriza to send a message to other countries who are heading toward the left.

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Post by Lenzabi on Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:15 pm

To think, Germany attained dominance over Western Europe, not by Military Conquest, but by economic methods, Long list of failed would be empire builders would be both proud and jealous

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Post by Rockhopper on Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:35 pm

Yep Len. What they couldn't do with tanks, they are doing with banks!

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Post by Stargate on Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:40 pm

@Lenzabi wrote:To think, Germany attained dominance over Western Europe, not by Military Conquest, but by economic methods, Long list of failed would be empire builders would be both proud and jealous

You are so right about that Len.
Yes Tim, the outcome is important, it can be done either way. War means different things for different people.

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Post by Rockhopper on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:25 am

Whichever way the vote goes in Greece on Sunday, it's going to have ramifications throughout the world!

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Post by Rogue on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:12 am

EU: Uncharted Territory - Page 2 _83917709_3e812b88-8801-476b-aedf-2d758f4aa760

...such a simple question.. Neutral
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Post by Stargate on Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:07 am

What a loaded question, yes you die, No you die. The Greeks have nothing left to loose, it is better they say no because they did not do any better all the years they supported the UE. Yes it is not going to be easy. Think of it like Cuba did. The world expected Cuba to fold and die, but it made them stronger, and it showed the world that one can survive without the world bank, and IMF.

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Post by Rogue on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:05 pm


Its NO surprise!
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Post by Rogue on Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:51 am


Modern day Greek Tragedy...
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Post by Stargate on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:41 am

When you consider the history of Greece and Italy, it's kind of ironic they are both economically laboring in modern times.

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Post by Rogue on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:10 am


Yes I'm sure Italy will be especially keen to see Greece do a better deal with the Eurogroup. What's good for the goose...
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Post by Lenzabi on Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:38 pm

Just have to see what Greece does next

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Post by Rockhopper on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:06 pm

There is a book called 'The Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by John Perkins that everyone should read, it's chilling!



And a discussion by Thomas Piketty:

http://thetodayonline.com/httpsmedium-com443gavinschalliolthomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff-2015-07-06/

People think the Germany is being magnanimous by lending money to Greece. If one can call charging and interest rate of 25% as being generous!!

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Post by Lenzabi on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:16 pm

Perkins was featured in several documentaries discussing the nefarious under-pinnings of corporate economic behaviors not ever listed in the news.

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Post by Rogue on Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:39 am

Greece has a change of heart

GREEK Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has now confirmed Greece will submit “credible” reform plans to the eurozone on Thursday as demanded by leaders of the currency union at their latest emergency summit.

“The Greek government... will tomorrow file new concrete proposals, credible reforms, for a fair and viable solution,” he told the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/us-president-barack-obama-forced-to-intervene-in-the-greece-crisis/story-fnu2pycd-1227433925231
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Post by Stargate on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:11 am

The Greek Prime Minister has given himself some room for negotiations, although the bankers are making it look as if the ball is in his court. Watch out for a Russian surprise. I think the Greek Prime Minister made a deal with Russia before he asked for the referendum. The bankers are going on as if they did not know because they were entering dangerous territory. The soap continues.

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