Re: EU: Uncharted Territory

by Lenzabi Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:06 pm

No Star they are not. The idea of redistribution they label Socialism, which was started by a preacher and writer who were fraternal brothers, the Bellamys.

It stemmed from the good idea in the Christian religion of caring for others so that with all having what they need, all will not want and all will be equal. But we live in a world where we are taught to compete with all around us, to "be the winner" 'The one who dies with the most toys wins" mentality.

Screw folks they don't know as our minds are wired for smaller circles of friends, and the ability to care for others beyond that is hard to fathom, hence they have been able to avoid single payer health care here, and cut social safety nets to spend on military power as well as giving to those who don't need to hoard any more.

As a result, America is under insured still, people are still at risk to retire, are made to work longer, our infrastructure is crumbling around us, but we can kill ya with a drone launching missile miles away from your house.

The world wealth rest the most in the hands of 85 people tying that wealth up and for what or why I cannot understand.

Greed, the all consuming, humanity destroying kind is why these people are hoarding all that wealth and not letting it get redistributed. they fear losing even one single little coin of it.

Daffy is the 1%-er, and Bugs is the 99%-er

by Lenzabi Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:09 pm

And another example

by Lenzabi Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:11 pm

Now consider how old those cartoons are, and even then, they knew that some people just went nuts when they saw wealth. Instead of having enough to live happily, they want more and more, and never can be satisfied due to the disease called Greed.

by Stargate Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:48 pm

Thing I have noticed Len, is that no matter what happens to you in life, there is a part of you that always knows there is something wrong/right. I think if that was not so, we could not correct past errors, and the possibilities to self correct would not be given.

Our present appearance on the planet just goes to show how intricately intricate, we are.
We have not adequately started to explore the magic of earth life, yet we are looking through spy gases we call telescopes, and microscopes, identifying objects light years away.
We have yet to invent a monetary system that works for all. Some strange power has blinded us called greed, the question is where did it come from?

by Rockhopper Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:13 am

I have put a thread separately because it is a slightly different aspect on this discussion.

Tim.

by Stargate Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:12 am

Who blinked, the EU, or the Greeks? I think now the trouble has just begun. I was very confident the EU could not afford to let Greece go. I am sure some backdoor deals went down we will never hear of. Bigger problems ahead, the move was too desperate, and the rest of the thieves are watching.

by Rogue Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:19 am

Talk about a hard sell...

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras Must Now Sell Rescue Deal To Greece, Introduce Punishing Austerity
APBy JOHN-THOR DAHLBURG AND PAN PYLAS
Posted: 07/14/2015
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/greece-bailout-deal_55a4948fe4b0b8145f737a3a?

by Rockhopper Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:57 am

Alexis had no choice really. The Troika were just stonewalling and yet saying that they were "negotiating"! Bullshit, they were never negotiating just demanding.

Time was running out for Syriza and the economy of Greece is collapsing.

Tim.

by Lenzabi Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:18 am

Now to see how those chips fall

by Rogue Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:42 pm

Hopefullly somehow through all this it will lead Greece through a number of reforms. From many reports here the bureuracacy and corruption are smothering the countries health and growth as much as the debt crisis. No good blaming others its time for Greece own their own shit and do something about it..

by Kaere Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:01 pm

I have to say I agree with you there, Rogue.

by Rockhopper Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:01 pm

Rogue wrote:
Hopefullly somehow through all this it will lead Greece through a number of reforms. From many reports here the bureuracacy and corruption are smothering the countries health and growth as much as the debt crisis. No good blaming others its time for Greece own their own shit and do something about it..

Perhaps it is Roggie. But to impose abject poverty on people who are already very poor is not the answer. They have already reformed the Pension system there and I wish them luck in cracking down on the Greek Oligarchy. The late shipping magnate Onassis once stated publically that he never had paid any tax in his lifetime.

Because of the Austerity the Greek economy has shrunk to a shadow of it's former self. And one has to wonder how more of the same will improve the economy to allow them to pay down their debts.

Tim.

by Rogue Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:12 pm

There are many reforms Greece must tackle in rebuilding their economy. Austerity makes it difficult but the country can't just keep operating as it does.. Nothing will improve unless the broader issues are tackled.

by Rockhopper Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:35 pm

Agreed Roggie. But the reforms need to be done without Austerity. If Greece can re-develop it's economy they will be in a much better place to pay off the debts that don't really exist.

This is how it works: Let's say a German Bank issues credit to a supposed country, say Greece. It is issued on the complete proviso that it can only be used to buy German goods not anything else. So it has created a captive market.

Now a wealthy Greek buys a BMW, the money goes from the German Bank straight to the BMW Werks and doesn't go anywhere near Greece. But the German Govt. claims that it is a Sovereign debt (owed by a country not a person) and then forces the ordinary Greeks to pay it back. In reality it is owed by the buyer of the BMW not the rest of the population who are being forced to pay it.

The Euro was expressively set up to favour German Manufacturing but not the industry of the other countries. Germans do not have to buy goods produced in Greece but Greeks are forced to buy German products. That is the in-balance!

That is what has caused the issues we are now seeing there.

There is a lot of bullshit about Greece floating around, little of it true. Greece HAS re-structured a lot of it's internal issues, Pensions, Public Sector Pay, etc. and done so some years ago. But with this "New" programme of Austerity they now must cut back Health Care (notably for the elderly), Education and Infrastructure. And furthermore they are being forced to sell off their assets to, well guess who? German Industrialists!

Tim.

by Lenzabi Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:43 am

Sounds like Germany taking a form of revenge economically on countries they felt caused them grief during that time, Spain for never committing to the Axis cause, Portugal for needing to be occupied for Atlantic ports, Italy for changing sides, and Greece for causing them issues of needing to be occupied when Italy flubbed that before their run to Russia. Instead of Panzers, they are hurting them with banknotes/loans and interest rates on austerity program.

by Rogue Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:20 am

You get what you sign up for.

by Stargate Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:25 am

Rogue wrote:
You get what you sign up for.

Although I agree with you that things cannot continue in the same way for Greece, I do not think you always get what you sign up for.

One side of the equation is that Greece was bamboozled into buying into the EU's dream. I also agree with Lenny about Germany, they are always into revenge no matter what they say. As you might know Europe do not treat each other the same. The Balkan and North African countries are more likely to end up on the peripheries than the centralized countries.
They also use the economically weaker nations to cover their corrupted butts. At the moment England's debt is larger that any other EU nation. They benefit from the terms of the EU but do not contribute to it. Do you think England would ever be exposed as Greece was?

by Rockhopper Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:59 pm

Agreed Star. Germany's role in all of this is pure vindictiveness and had nothing to do with assisting Greece. Wolfie Schauble, the German Finance Minister, is 80 odd years old and living in the "Glorious" past. He is the one who is hard and fast on Greece.

Greece has the temerity to democratically elect a Centre Left Govt and according to the Germans that was a dastardly thing to do. They have to send a signal to all the other weak countries not to do the same. This whole "Bail-out" bullshit is political not financial.

I see that the IMF has withdrawn from the deal too. Citing that it is patently obvious that Greece has no way of ever paying down it's debt. And that the deal is onerous.

Not defending what Greece did in the past but I can see that this deal simply can't work. Pushing Austerity onto a country reduces it's ability to make debt payments not increases it.

Al Jaz has a video taken over the last few years in Greece watch it here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2015/07/agora-democracy-market-150701120718536.html

Tim.

by Rockhopper Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:01 pm

This video explains what is happening to Greece. Watch it right through and you will see and understand the process.

Tim.

by Stargate Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:40 pm

The video explains it well. I think it is better Greece leaves the EU otherwise they are going to suffer.
I am so sorry that violence has now entered the dilemma, but I can understand why the people have become violent. Either we are looking at a game being played by the government of Greece, or the people have lost trust. We will see.

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