Re: Irreversible Civilisation Collapse...

[Lenzabi]

Arnold Toynbee, proposed that civilisations on the way to history’s scrap heap always fail in the same general way. The most important factor that makes a rising civilization work, he called 'mimesis'—the universal human habit by which people imitate the behaviour and attitudes of those they admire. As long as the political class of a civilisation can inspire admiration and affection from those below it, the civilisation thrives, because the shared sense of values and purpose generated by mimesis keeps the pressures of competing  interests from tearing it apart. Scanned this from his book:

Civilizations fail, in turn, because their political classes lose the ability to inspire mimesis, and this happens in turn because members of the elite become so fixated on maintaining their own power and privilege that they stop doing an adequate job of addressing the problems facing their society.  As those problems spin further and further out of control, the political class loses the ability to inspire and settles instead for the ability to dominate. Outside the political class and its hangers-on, in turn, more and more of the population becomes what one could call internal proletariat, an increasingly sullen underclass that still provides the political class with its cannon fodder and labour force but no longer sees anything to admire or emulate in those who order it around.

It can be an unsettling experience to read newspapers or wide-circulation magazines from before 1960 or so using Toynbee’s analysis.  Most newspapers included a feature known as the society pages, which chronicled the social and business activities of the well-to-do, and those were read, with a sort of fascinated envy, very far down the social pyramid. Established figures of the political and business world were treated with a degree of effusive respect you won’t find in today’s media, and even those who hoped to push aside this politician or that businessman rarely dreamed of anything more radical than filling the same positions themselves. Nowadays? Watching politicians, businesspeople, and celebrities get dragged down by some  scandal or other is a nation’s most popular spectator sport.
When imitating the examples offered by the privileged becomes a dead end, in other words, people find other examples to imitate. That’s one of the core factors, I’m convinced, behind the collapse of the reputation of the sciences in contemporary society, which is so often bemoaned by scientists and science educators.  Neil DeGrasse Tyson, say, may waffle on about the glories of science, but what exactly do those glories have to offer children huddling in an abandoned house in some run-down suburb, whose main concerns are finding ways to get enough to eat and stay out of the way of the latest turf war between the local gangs?

Now of course there’s been a standard kneejerk answer. That answer was that science and technology would eventually create such abundance that everyone in the world would be able to enjoy a middle-class lifestyle.  That same claim can still be heard nowadays, although it’s grown shrill and hollow. In point of fact, for the lower 80% of people by income, the peak of prosperity was reached in the third quarter of the 20th century, and it’s all been downhill from there. This isn’t an accident; what the rhetoric of progress through science misses is that the advance of science may have been a necessary condition for the boomtimes of the industrial age, but it was never a sufficient source in itself.

Tim.

Ah yes, the promises of science and technology, but sadly all the ideas and promises of science were paid for by the corporates and the power mongers, so they claimed any and all scientific innovations for themselves as they did not see the problems they could have solved by being less selfish, and more selfless. Of course, many of the selfish, the Libertarians who are ascribed to the concept of not helping what they call socialism in that regard, trace that mentality back to the panic reaction manifesto called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, a noted and in my opinion hysterical reactionary to seeing socialism in tiny doses being implemented here in her day. (Having been of a family victimized by the Stalinist government), she over reacted to the New Deal Roosevelt implemented because we did indeed need a counter balance to Oligarchial trends similar to what we see now. I suspect there is much that science indeed could have provided us if the new ideas had been managed differently, much as our food is mismanaged so badly, the food thrown out unbought here in America alone is 14milion tons! Imagine if taking that into account, food distribution banks could be given it still fresh and just handed to the folks in need, hunger would be one less issue. Electricity, if all homes came with solar windows/and collectors, and wind turbine, no more electric bills. Water reclaimation so that gray water is collected and processed for gardening, or re-use in washers, and toilets? Housing? well, if the government would clamp down on out of control landlords and mortgages so that people did not have to hand over 2/3 or more of their paychecks to keep a roof over their heads. Government should not only be separated from church, but corporates as well, make it back to what it started in modern concepts, civil service, not sine cures for advancing to billionaire hood. Share the burdens! same medical/dental plans as all Americans (or nation of choice), pass laws that help the nation thrive and survive, not the just the elites. Do I as an American think that spending twice the amount of 11 of our allies and such is smart in the long run? I do not, we can still out spend any one if we drop to just the same as those 11 nations, and the savings would be good to use on social safety nets, educational benefits, and investing in better use of resources like science., We can also end the forking over of money to the fat cats.

I would also enjoy seeing actual non industry types gain access to offices appointed over the very industries they have the conflict of interest in,,,,FCC should actually not have the Lobbyist lackeys from the cable or phone industry overseeing them. Same with Food, No more Monsanto or Smithfield foods etc in charge, the money of the nation, no more wallstreeters. The massive mismanagement is why the disconnect, these gilded wankers have proven that they are not more capable for the jobs, if anything, they have proven that they are all foxes in the henhouse!

[Stargate]

To a great extent I think fear has over taken the minority of wealth seekers. Just when is enough, enough? It seems a mind deformity disease has infiltrated the bio-matter where the subjective mind cannot recognize the objective mind. We tend to want to accumulate and not distribute. The laws that govern matter antimatter are being ignored and over ridden to suffice a few.

Len, what is it that has brought us here? Is it indeed the natural evolutionary steps we humans have to take in order to make progress? As a human I can only see so far, do I just give up and let whatever happens, happen? As you have pointed out there is so much where we could do a lot better, yet we do not seem to realize we the masses have the actual power.

[Lenzabi]

To a great extent I think fear has over taken the minority of wealth seekers. Just when is enough, enough? It seems a mind deformity disease has infiltrated the bio-matter where the subjective mind cannot recognize the objective mind. We tend to want to accumulate and not distribute. The laws that govern matter antimatter are being ignored and over ridden to suffice a few.

Len, what is it that has brought us here? Is it indeed the natural evolutionary steps we humans have to take in order to make progress? As a human I can only see so far, do I just give up and let whatever happens, happen? As you have pointed out there is so much where we could do a lot better, yet we do not seem to realize we the masses have the actual power.  

Each human is on their own path. But as a whole, how we treat each other impacts our "evolution", some will move on, others will repeat.

[Rockhopper]

Exactly Len. There are many who will fall be the wayside and some will progress.

One of the biggest problems we see today is professional pollies. They go to Uni, leave there and straight into politics. So they have no real life or work experience. That makes them isolated from the reality we all live in.

Tim.

[Lenzabi]

Exactly Len. There are many who will fall be the wayside and some will progress.

One of the biggest problems we see today is professional pollies. They go to Uni, leave there and straight into politics. So they have no real life or work experience. That makes them isolated from the reality we all live in.

Tim.

Hence their "Ivory Tower" syndrome. That scholastic to no real world but the insulated world of political wheeling and dealing with no idea of the real world they are supposed to represent is why they are so disconnected from their constituents, they need to live for some time having to ask for government safety programs, getting a hard job that pays little for so many hours and see how small a distance those paychecks truly go to see why the safety net programs are needed! Without the perspective of having to worry how they will pay their bills see a doctor, and feed themselves without the large comfortable money cushion they had all of their lives, they will always act like the Nobility of Versailles. And History showed us what happened to them when they let things get bad enough.   

[Monk (in hiding)]

Exactly Len. There are many who will fall be the wayside and some will progress.

One of the biggest problems we see today is professional pollies. They go to Uni, leave there and straight into politics. So they have no real life or work experience. That makes them isolated from the reality we all live in.

Tim.

Hence their "Ivory Tower" syndrome. That scholastic to no real world but the insulated world of political wheeling and dealing with no idea of the real world they are supposed to represent is why they are so disconnected from their constituents, they need to live for some time having to ask for government safety programs, getting a hard job that pays little for so many hours and see how small a distance those paychecks truly go to see why the safety net programs are needed! Without the perspective of having to worry how they will pay their bills see a doctor, and feed themselves without the large comfortable money cushion they had all of their lives, they will always act like the Nobility of Versailles. And History showed us what happened to them when they let things get bad enough.   

Yet you supported the hostile takeover by the BLM on Bundies Ranch!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=662583950495871&set=vb.111938618893743&type=2&theater

[Lenzabi]

Exactly Len. There are many who will fall be the wayside and some will progress.

One of the biggest problems we see today is professional pollies. They go to Uni, leave there and straight into politics. So they have no real life or work experience. That makes them isolated from the reality we all live in.

Tim.

Hence their "Ivory Tower" syndrome. That scholastic to no real world but the insulated world of political wheeling and dealing with no idea of the real world they are supposed to represent is why they are so disconnected from their constituents, they need to live for some time having to ask for government safety programs, getting a hard job that pays little for so many hours and see how small a distance those paychecks truly go to see why the safety net programs are needed! Without the perspective of having to worry how they will pay their bills see a doctor, and feed themselves without the large comfortable money cushion they had all of their lives, they will always act like the Nobility of Versailles. And History showed us what happened to them when they let things get bad enough.   

Yet you supported the hostile takeover by the BLM on Bundies Ranch!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=662583950495871&set=vb.111938618893743&type=2&theater

Nah, just did not feel like supported some well off guy getting over with free feed of his cattle on taxpayer owned lands. Big difference, they did not take his ranch, just wanted him to to pay the fees, which he ignored twice.

[Monk (in hiding)]

He had no contract with the federal government.

[Lenzabi]

Old argument from the other site VM. Bundy had been in court 2 times over the issues at the very least, had been doing as he pleased for 20yrs, got called on it. Then has armed militants, some may have been level headed, others were in fact not so level headed, scofflaws are what makes it harder for the rest. Civilization collapse will occur from the OP listed sources, but not just the government but all people should be preserving the lands, sadly we have folks who will do as they please for fun and profits, like the damage to ancient burial areas from off road bikes and quads. those who dump garbage out at sea, rather than wait till they get back to dock/port to dump it in a proper receptacle, human mismanagement is turning garden world Earth into a cesspit. The newer generations will be living in all of that mess created and further pushed by our generations' lack of will to support changes to avert it.

[Rockhopper]

Apparently the two Cop Killers in Vegas tried to get in with the Bundy mob and were too extreme for even them.

The empire is collapsing but those who are immersed in it don't notice until it's too late. We are moving into the Empire of China right now.

Tim.

[X]

But again regarding the op..collapse wont happen when a population is under such complete surveillance....collapse wont happen when a population sees itself has cozy in the modern world even with all these draconian measures

[Rockhopper]

The surveillance will still carry on Mr.W. Even as everything is collapsing all around the people. They will hardly notice the changes.

The US can't keep up their military presence up either and slowly the bases will be closed and the staff withdrawn. That's what the Romans did. In 450AD the Britania legions went to Gaulia first and eventually back to Rome in 480AD.

Tim.

[Mordae]

But again regarding the op..collapse wont happen when a population is under such complete surveillance....collapse wont happen when a population sees itself has cozy in the modern world even with all these draconian measures

My guess is that the surveillance just means there will be a record of how it happened.  The thing is, humanity is very good at coping with a single disaster, it's when there are more than one in quick succession that the species comes unstuck (as a general rule).  And seeing as one disaster type is normally connected with the next disaster in line...*shrug*

As an example: The 2011 Tsunami, along with being a major disaster in its own right, also gave us Fukishima, which is an ongoing clusterf@ck, which in turn has led to a distrust of government and public authorites, which may be one of the reasons why Abe has decided Japan needs an active military again. The global rise in temperature breeds stronger storms...when one of those hit the Fukishima plant, the sheer potential of what may happen should be enough to start the squirts   

[Lenzabi]

So, let us look economic collapse, civil unrest once the power is cut due to unpaid bills from lack of jobs, or no fuel for the fossil fuel power plants. Sever weather due to climatic changes, some more wars, pandemics as we have created monster "bugs" form over abuse of anti-biotics in pills to soaps, peak oil, peak water, famine, droughts, there is a long list along with a mass extinction.

[Rockhopper]

The people in general don't look at the grander picture Len. They think that the problems are internal but they're not. Everything has a cause and an effect. Ye Yanks are suffering because of the two disasters in West Asia; Raqattaq and Afganbang. Both are disasters. But folks are not connecting the dots.

A Military empire needs endless wars to function but endless wars drain the resources of the Emperor until the people suffer. It then implodes but people immersed in it don't realise until too late. That is what is happening now.

Tim.

[Monk (in hiding)]

The solution is within ourselves.

100th monkey effect.

[Rockhopper]

We often don't know what we've lost until it's gone and then it's too late. People never miss what they have never had but when they have had it, it becomes overwhelming.

Tim.

[Monk (in hiding)]

So you can't let go?

[Rockhopper]

I can but can others?

Tim.

[Stargate]

I can but can others?

Tim.

Most cannot Tim, they are trapped, it is so easy to get trapped. If you practice anything for three days you begin to cut a grove in your memory plate, much like a record with groves

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