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Post by Rogue on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:11 am

Ditto.. ugh!
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Post by Agartha on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:19 am

@Icewendigo:

Your 2nd video:
1)Let’s start by saying we cannot take his excess deaths mortality graphs in consideration because Europe’s Winter Season is only starting now. Let's talk about it in April 2021.

2) The video says other coronaviruses infections have provided some immunity for Covid19, where is the data for that? Where are the studies? Please show us.

3) What he said about Sweden is misleading: Sweden didn’t have an imposed lockdown, however, Swedish people kept socially distanced, worked from home when they could etc, no lockdown but they changed their ways voluntarily. The graph shown in the video is up to August, have a look at Sweden today: 12th highest death in the world.

4) The UK data also stops 7th September and we all know how much cases and deaths have increased in October.

Summary: the guy is spreading misinformation, dangerous misinformation. Just like the hydroxychloroquine videos you posted before.
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Post by Agartha on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:21 am

Your first video: I totally disagree with Lion, it does not look interesting as it comes from a member of GCIC which says, for example:

-Sweden (no lockdown) and Britain (strict lockdown) have comparable disease and mortality statistics.
As I have explained above, the ‘No lockdown Sweden’ is not true at all. Their point: false
 
- Populations have T-cell immunity from previous influenza waves. 
Not been proven at all (or not yet at least). Show us the data then.
 
-Likelihood of false-positives is 89-94% or near certainty. 
Incorrect. In the UK 1 in 1000 is a false positive, that’s 0.10%
 
-Most deaths occur in the elderly. 
So what? Should we stop caring about our parents and grandparents? What a Nazi way of thinking!
 
Those believing the pandemic is a hoax are gullible people believing Q-Anon and dangerous at the same time as they follow right wing ideology and they are promoting death.
 
Fake science kills. Those who promoted Hydroxychloroquine and those who say the pandemic is fake are just trying to kill the most vulnerable people in society: the elderly and those already ill. Shameful.
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Post by IceWendigo on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:45 am

"Those who promoted Hydroxychloroquine and those who say the pandemic is fake are just trying to kill the most vulnerable people in society: the elderly"
IHU Marseilles is proof this statement is inaccurate, they use HCQ and have MUCH lower mortality than other regions that do not.
There is a deliberate campaign of disinformation against Hydroxychloroquine,  It has been used to succesfully treat Thousands of cov patient at IHU hospital Marseilles alone. IHU is an infectious disease specialized hospital with MANY world leading infectous disease experts. It is also used in MANY countries we dont hear about. 

"its easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

"those who can make you believe in absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" -Voltaire


Covid19 as shaken Elon Musk's faith in humanity, its same for me, at this point Im about to think  "let the lemmings run to the cliff, they cant be stopped" a few will only undertand at the last minute when they free fall to their deaths

In Quebec I personnally know for a fact we are already being tracked with our cellphones. 

Im considering preparing for the possibility of leaving Quebec or even Canada completely, Im touching up the house, have meet with an agent.


Last edited by IceWendigo on Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Kaere on Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:18 pm

Y'know what... I want to call this hospital to confirm this information. Actually, I'm going to ask the head of my organization (who works closely with our provincial Chief Medical Officer) to call them to confirm this information, so we'll know it's peers talking to peers.

Is this the one? https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/en/institute/the-foundation/
Or is it this one? http://fr.ap-hm.fr/nos-hopitaux/hopital-de-la-timone

Who is this doctor? Does he have something to do with it? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/marseilles-maverick-covid-scientist-why-the-city-took-doctor-to-its-heart

He sounds like another Dr. Wakefield (discredited and now unlicensed physician who falsely linked vaccinations to autism).

Do you really think French doctors are that evil that they wouldn't be more forthcoming about a cure for Coronavirus? Do you really think they wouldn't rail against the Big Bad Media to save lives??

I think it's just an easy enemy, something to focus rage and anger against in a world in which we have no control to change certain things. And a way to feel superior to all the stupid "lemmings" in the world.
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Post by IceWendigo on Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:34 pm

The first one, yes Dr Didier Raoult is one of MANY doctors, virologist, experts that work at IHU mediterranée infection. Medical authorities are Corrupt to the core that a doctor looses his license does not prove a thing you have to eveluate what They say directly with no middleman and their data, not what others say about them.


Are they Evil for letting people die, i dont know their motives but they are letting people die and in some cases deliberately accerating their deaths(with Rivotril drug). Were the doctors that prescribed thalidomide in the 60s evil? Thousands of babies were born with deformities, how can that many doctors possibly be all be wrong?(when they blindly trust, a large number can be tragically wrong, and that they are many does not prove they are right)
"thalidomide causes defomities? Thats a crazy conspiracy theory. How can thousands of doctors around the world be wrong? Do you think they are all evil?"

In Shannon Quebec, many people got cancer including childen, many died, because their water was contaminated with chemicals leaking from a Canadian Army base and they didnt know. But 3 different canadian government agencies knew, and they all kept silent as people were dying. Imo its a crime. Are the people of these 3 agencies evil? Did they let people die, yes they did.
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Post by IceWendigo on Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:23 pm

"Fake science kills"
Science is not a religion, people need to be critical, examine the data, confirm with their own observations. The truth needs no censorship nor fears debate to prevail, lies do.
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Post by Agartha on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:17 pm

Dr Didier has been found falsifying data on several of his studies, hence he is not believable and any study with his name is not reliable. I have read two of his Covid Hydroxychloroquine studies and they are quiet flawed and the results questionable.  Hydroxychloroquine doesn't work with Covid patients who are severely ill in hospitals, but it may work as prevention and in fact there are trials right now going on in the UK. Just because one study in one hospital says it does, doesn't mean that's the truth. Also, there have been cases elsewhere where HDCQ caused heart problems. 

But, I am open to the possibility it could work, I just haven't seen real studies that proves its efficacy. I will believe it when I see evidence.  If HydroxyCQ was effective I would have seen it being used in hospitals in the UK and other countries I am associated with, and they are not. Why do you think that is? Even Trump didn't use HDCQ when he was in hospital with Covid! And he promoted it!

Thalidomide was prescribed in the 60s when regulations were not as tight and clinical trials were not peer reviewed. The Shannon's waters were also contaminated by burying toxic waste in the grounds in the 40s. In most countries that practice was banned in the 80s and 90s. Both examples you quoted happened decades ago and yes, it was awful and criminal but luckily they have prompted new health and safety laws everywhere. Pity people are still suffering because they were affected then. 

Exactly that: science is not a religion and it's not scientists faults if people do not understand it. You are now mixing one thing and another when we were talking about Covid. And we were discussing the lawyer part of GCIC, those who promote herd immunity, aka= killing the vulnerable members of society we are supposed to protect. 

We were also discussing your second video with outdated misleading information.



IceWendigo
In Quebec I personnally know for a fact we are already being tracked with our cellphones. 

Im considering preparing for the possibility of leaving Quebec or even Canada completely, Im touching up the house, have meet with an agent.



Mobile phones trace and track every single step we make and they even listen to conversations, even children know that. And that's happening all over the world. There's nothing you can do: if you want the technology, the internet, computers, etc then this is the price to pay. Unless you go completely off grid in the middle of nowhere, in a house with no electricity etc.
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Post by IceWendigo on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:29 pm

We are heading slowly but surely towards a 1984 total surveillance totalitarian nightmare, with each crisis our liberties are stripped from us, and we rationalise its because of the crisis, when the crisis is over the lost liberties are never returned because people have gotten used to it, then another crisis starts, rince and repeat, Its like watching a train wreck in slowmotion. And many people think all is normal. 

People in the 50s would never accept to be spied on by their own intelligence agency, now people either dont know, think its a conspiracy theory, or eventually thet know but dont care because the media are not talking about it, and are used to it. Its the Boiling Frog syndrome, people dont react and its getting worse and worse.
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Post by TrueCrazyLion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:36 pm

@Agartha wrote:Your first video: I totally disagree with Lion, it does not look interesting
I was making what’s always my default response in that kind of situation. Ice was visiting for the first time for ages and his first post after coming back was posting a video which, I figured, was likely to contribute a different viewpoint to the discussion, so that was why I said it looked like it could be interesting without having watched it yet; I figured that if I’d said “That video looks boring” or anything similar, that wouldn’t have been very nice, so I viewed the glass as half full! 
Maybe it was too complementary and I should’ve said something more neutral, I dunno till I’ve watched it.

I’ve been away from the forums a lot this last day or so and still haven’t watched those vids, but will try and make time to do it when I can and feed back my thoughts.
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Post by TrueCrazyLion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:56 pm

OK... That’ll teach me to make polite comments about things I’ve not checked out properly!
I watched the first 5 minutes of the first one and couldn’t bring myself to watch any more of it. Those theories are crazy.

To suggest that a very real virus pandemic is some kind of fraud is bonkers enough, but to argue that it’s the biggest ever crime against humanity??? No. That was the Holocaust! This guy even mentions the Nuremberg Trails(And gets the name wrong!) but plays down the significance of the atrocities which necessitated them?! Oh my God!

I’m all in favour of looking at things from different viewpoints - it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything. But those viewpoints need to have a logical basis! That video will be all about falsifying and massaging data, and taking other facts out of context, to support a BS argument.

I find it genuinely frightening that there are people out there who are going to such lengths to push such nonsense.
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Post by TrueCrazyLion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:16 pm

In the 2nd video, it looks more believable on the surface, but fundamentally I’m seeing the same kind of thing - false arguments being used to justify a nonsensical viewpoint.

The evidence is overwhelming now, that this is a novel virus which affects people in new and different ways, there was no prior immunity due to exposure to other viruses, and the spike and decline in cases and deaths is due to the lockdown measures which have been implemented worldwide.

Again, I’ve not watched the video beyond the first few minutes, but I think that what I’ve already seen(Plus everyone else’s comments here) is enough to tell me all I need to know.

This stuff is the equivalent to virology of what the Flat Earth theory is to astronomy.
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Post by Agartha on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:21 am

@IceWendigo wrote:We are heading slowly but surely towards a 1984 total surveillance totalitarian nightmare, with each crisis our liberties are stripped from us, and we rationalise its because of the crisis, when the crisis is over the lost liberties are never returned because people have gotten used to it, then another crisis starts, rince and repeat, Its like watching a train wreck in slowmotion. And many people think all is normal. 

People in the 50s would never accept to be spied on by their own intelligence agency, now people either dont know, think its a conspiracy theory, or eventually thet know but dont care because the media are not talking about it, and are used to it. Its the Boiling Frog syndrome, people dont react and its getting worse and worse.

First of all there was mass surveillance already in the 50s, and even earlier than that, we just have better technology now. So what are you suggesting then? What is your solution not to live under total surveillance (in normal times)? 

And during Covid, what is your choice: to overwhelm the health systems, to go on  total lockdown and ruin the economy or to use technology to track and trace? What's your choice?

--------------

Lion, my apologies, I shouldn't have involved you in my reply, it's just that the spreading of misinformation is a pet hate of mine because it leads to gullible people dying. Sorry.
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Post by IceWendigo on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:00 am

Its not because its techically possible that it should be legal. Its technically possible for a police officer to break down your door and manhandle you to see what color of underwear you are wearing, its technically possible, not legal. 

Seasonal flu/covid, do as we have done for decades, give treatment to the sick, when you're sick rest and dont see other people while you rest.

"pet hate" 
hatefull emotions make me think of a witch hunt. For some odd reason a witch hunt, make think of a crowd of emotional people, which makes me think of the fire drill in the office
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Post by Agartha on Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:12 am

If you don't change your post after my reply (again):

1) You have not given one solution. I asked you, what's your solution? Still waiting.

2) Seasonal flu and Covid are completely different, hence we should listen to the experts. Seasonal Flu mortality rate is approx. 0.1%. Covid death rate is approx. between 0.5% and 1%, five to ten times higher than the flu. Your suggestion is not feasible, unless you expect the vulnerable to die. Numbers in intensive care unit are rising again, so I am asking you again: what is your solution? We either all go on lockdown and crash the economy, or we overwhelm the health system. I work for the UK's National health System and I would love you to spend a day or two with us so you can experience the real world, not the one you see from your laptop.

3) Pet hate is not hate. It's an annoyance, something you dislike. You can also call it Pet peeve. Witch hunt?....  Rolling Eyes
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Post by TrueCrazyLion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:26 am

Aggie, it’s all good! It’s an ongoing subject which you - we - feel strongly about, for very good reasons. And I wasn’t offended, I just felt that I’d made a slightly misleading comment which was my real reason for explaining. Smile

You have a great handle on the facts, figures, ins and outs of the situation which I don’t at the moment, I’ve been going more by intuition, hence me not getting involved in the debate too much. But everything you’ve been saying makes perfect sense IMO, and also, you’re especially qualified to comment since you work in a hospital, and you’ve witnessed and experienced these things first hand.
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Post by IceWendigo on Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:53 am

Here the dead are mostly people that are in their 80s+ and about to die. People that have died from other cause including terminal cancer and suicide were added to covid19 stats which makes them unreliable. If we used the same fraudulent method for a common cold or seasonal flu their death rates would be MUCH higher and possibly match the fraudulent covid stats. Here autopsies were prohibited. Elderly were prevented from getting vitamin D. And the media have been caught red handed saying that specific young individuals had died of covid making a fearmongering media circus and later we found they had not died of covid. Our media are absolute Liars.

My solution: promote health and prevention(for which theres no profit), provide accessible pesticide free  food, avoid stress/fearmongering/isolation/depression, invest in healthcare workers instead of soliers, provide the sick with a healthy environment comfortable quiet so they can rest and sleep well, with sunlight fresh air, nutritious food. If need be isolate the sick which is also called a quarantine but for gods sake dont isolate the healthy which is also called dictatorship.
 
 I would not do this:
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Post by Agartha on Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:06 pm

Here the dead are mostly people that are in their 80s+ and about to die.
So? What does it matter whether they are 80 or 30? They are still people, they still deserve compassion, empathy and dignity.

People that have died from other cause including terminal cancer and suicide were added to covid19 stats which makes them unreliable. If we used the same fraudulent method for a common cold or seasonal flu their death rates would be MUCH higher and possibly match the fraudulent covid stats.

Evidence please.

Elderly were prevented from getting vitamin D.

Vitamin D is made by Big Pharma. 

invest in healthcare workers instead of soldiers

I hope you'll never need medical care from doctors and nurses who, since Covid started, have been working lots of overtime without even getting paid a penny extra, including me.. all whilst most people were at home, safe. Karma is a bitch, Icewendigo. 


If need be isolate the sick which is also called a quarantine but for gods sake dont isolate the healthy which is also called dictatorship.

Many families live with elderly grandparents or disabled/ill people, including children. How do you isolate them and not the rest of the 'healthy' family members? Please tell me because my 70+ year old mother lives with me because she cannot live by herself anymore, so what's your solution then?

And the video you posted: I see two men that are not scared of infection because one removes his mask. I hear a woman who could be mentally ill for all I know and no evidence of anything. Where did it happen? Did you read the letter the woman is shouting about? How do we know that's real and not a prank? is that a building with flats (apartments) or accommodation for people with mental health issues? Please provide a context and evidence, not just a video a 10 year old could have recorded.
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Post by IceWendigo on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:23 pm

On what data the Sweden 12th highest death in the world based?
Who is 11th?

Id rather be in Sweden hands down, would rather be in the 12th country with less restrictions than the 6th with less freedoms.
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Post by IceWendigo on Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:33 am

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